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Vengeance Demon Hunter: First Impression of the New DH Talent Trees in Dragonflight
Dragonflight
Publicado
16/09/2022 a las 09:00
por
Itamae
With the reveal of the Dragonflight DH talent trees, our Vengeance Demon Hunter writer Itamae provides initial reactions and thoughts on this revamped system. We break down the DH talent trees, discussing the new talents and providing some sample builds. Join us as we predict how this class could play in Dragonflight!
To learn about the best PvE talent builds in Dragonflight for this class, and export these builds into the game, please check out our Havoc and Vengeance Demon Hunter class guides:
Havoc Demon Hunter Talent BuildsVengeance Demon Hunter Talent Builds
Introduction
With the release of Dragonflight Beta, Vengeance Demon Hunter has finally received its talent tree. Being the last spec to have its tree unveiled, expectations were high. Now we can see whether it met those expectations. Please note that everything I've written here is from a PvE perspective and primarily contains my own opinions, though many of them concur with many current Vengeance players. In addition to the talent changes, we've also received a soft mastery rework which I'll discuss near the end.
N.B. This was written based on Beta build 45569 released on the week of September 14, 2022.
Demon Hunter Dragonflight Class Tree
What's New?
In Dragonflight, the talent system has changed from the current system of selecting one of three talents every five levels, to a tree reminiscent of the original WoW while being brought into the modern era. The trees are split into two separate sections, class and specialization, and starting from level 10, we gain one talent point per level, alternating between a class point and a spec point, for a total of 31 class talents and 30 spec talents. The class tree primarily contains abilities that seem to be centered on abilities and passives that could be useful for the whole class, while the spec tree is more for strengthening specialization related spells. As Demon Hunters were the only 2-spec class prior to Dragonflight, while being designed entirely during the Artifact weapon era of Legion, we have a short history of prior powerful borrowed powers to lean on. As a result, we have gained access to a number of core utilities and defensives that were previously only available to Havoc, while maintaining many of our current abilities, as well as some brand new talents. Due to it being a replacement for new spells as we level, many abilities that are currently baseline have been converted into talents which we must spend points on as well, and with the limited talent points, we must give up some of what we may be accustomed to having already.
A number of our class talents are abilities we have currently baseline or as talents but without restricting us to a single option on a talent row, such as our sigils and their related talents,
Armadura infernal
, and
Demoníaco
. Additionally, we have some very powerful new options for mobility in
Retirada vengativa
, as well as core utility from Havoc in
Nova de caos
,
Disiparse
, and
Oscuridad
. We've also got some borrowed powers returning from Legion through Shadowlands, like
Hojas de Guerra carbonizadas
from our Artifact weapon,
Armadura infernal
from Azerite traits,
Restauración destrozada
from conduits, and Covenant abilities like
La caza
.
These are simply some of the example talents that have been added to the Vengeance class tree, and I'll be covering them and more in-depth in the First Impressions selection below.
First Impressions
I've included a visual version of the tree below which may help for following along with my impressions.
Legend
Starting Free Talent
Don't Pick Talent
Must Take Talent
Pick One (Fury Gen)
Situational/Casual Talents
Pick One (or both)
Filler Talents
Optional Talents
The tree is primarily broken down into three major sections - the top section in which we must spend at least 8 points, a center section that opens up and where we must spend at least 20 points in combination with the top section, and a capstone section that primarily contains most of our powerful talents. Each section is then partitioned into a left, middle, and right subsection, which seem to be Havoc-focused, general class, and then Vengeance-focused respectively.
The top section is fairly well designed, perhaps exceedingly so. We start with a free point in
Sigilo de llamas
, and to spend 8 points here, we get a mix of Fury generation, defensives, mobility, and utility. As it is, we currently want to make our way down to
Hoja mácula
immediately, as it removes a number of empty GCDs from our rotation due to lack of Fury economy. On the way, we take
Retirada vengativa
and
Camino llameante
for mobility,
Restauración destrozada
for a boost to self-healing,
Furia desenfrenada
to prevent overcapping and allow for some pooling due to the way our Fury comes in bursts, and
Interrumpir mejorado
for a bit of extended range on kick. We also potentially want to pick up
Hojas de Guerra carbonizadas
for a small amount of leech, and
Encarcelar
and
Consumo de magia
have some utility, especially in dungeons or on adds during raid encounters. Finally, we'll probably want to pick up at least one of
Llamas de furia
,
Furia perturbadora
, or
Ira tragada
for some extra Fury. These talents are situational depending on which is more common between kicks and purges, while
Llamas de furia
is the consistent option when neither is possible. Unfortunately,
Vínculos vengativos
and
Gujas rebotadoras
are unlikely to ever be picked up due to lack of a niche.
Perseguir
can be taken for speedrunning old content, but we give up too much elsewhere to take it. Similarly, with current tuning, we're unlikely to be able to take
Aura de dolor
as we currently need
Hoja mácula
for the Fury.
Moving on to the center, I would consider this section the worst by far of our class tree. There are 6 talents which we absolutely never want to take, with all the good talents being in the middle class subsection. There are exactly 8 points that we want to spend here, all starting from
Avalancha de caos
which reduces our
Metamorfosis
cooldown from 4 minutes to 3 minutes. After that, we path down to both
Desgarre de almas
and
Armadura infernal
despite the latter being fairly lackluster, and then
Nova de caos
,
Demoníaco
, and
Sigilo de silencio
respectively. This unlocks the entire bottom section of our tree for flexibility, while giving us some add control and survivability. Unfortunately, as tuned,
Primero de los Illidari
will never be picked due to it being strictly worse than
Demoníaco
in all scenarios. The left and right subsections of the center are simply atrocious. On the left, we have a couple semi-useful utility options in
Celeridad de fuego vil
and
Maestro de la guja
, but limited so that we don't really want to spend the points on them over talents in the top section.
Conocimiento Illidari
unfortunately is not worth the points, as it's fairly unlikely we'll ever want extra magic damage reduction on top of what we have, especially when it costs effectively 3 points to get it. The right side is even worse, with two talents that are actively detrimental to players in a choice node between
Sigilos concentrados
and
Sigilos precisos
, as well as a current conduit in
Perdido en la oscuridad
that had exactly 2 uses this expansion and thus far, none in Dragonflight's first patch. They then lead to
Voluntad de los Illidari
, which sounds good on paper, but is absolutely not worth spending any of these points to get to. Because we only spend 8 points in the center, that frees us up to spend 4 extra points in the top, where we pick up a few more marginally useful talents.
Finally, our bottom section is nearly perfect, with only a couple minor issues. We get access to
Disiparse
, ironically our most powerful defensive by far as it was previously limited to Havoc. Then we want either one (or both) of
Oscuridad
and
Sigilo de desgracia
, depending on the situation to allow us to path down to
La caza
- a fan favorite option that provides a good amount of single target burst and survivability, as well as minor AoE. After that, we take
Malicia antinatural
for some extra damage, especially in AoE. Finally, we take
Diseño Aldrachi
for nearly all situations,
Sigilos extendidos
and
Sigilos acelerados
. While
Sigilos extendidos
isn't the most value for 2 points, it does have some uses and provides pathing below. That leaves us with 3 points of our choice to take
Fragmentos del caos
for survivability in AoE,
Angustia en la derrota
for a small bit of bonus damage in Mythic+ or on adds,
Negro absoluto
if we need a shorter cooldown, or
Corazón vil errático
for extra damage on single target.
Mordaza de demonio
may be an option if there is an all-magic fight with unparryable damage, but that type of fight has so far not been common enough to be taken. Unfortunately, none of our choice nodes are real choices.
Poder desatado
is generally unnecessary and doesn't provide any survival compared to
Fragmentos del caos
,
Persecución incesante
is difficult to get value from as we'd have to game the cast when mobs are about to die, rather than an always-active damage option, there are nearly never times when we need 2 extra seconds from
Noche larga
, and reducing the cooldown of
Sigilo de desgracia
with
Sigilo de desgracia mejorado
still doesn't allow us to permanently CC enemies and we lose free damage.
Instintos desesperados
is in a unique position, as it's quite good for casual play, but terrible for high level play. Being unable to control exactly when to use a defensive is a net negative, as there are situations where we may drop below 35% health and proc
Disiparse
, and then it will be on cooldown when we actually do want it a bit later.
Issues and Potential Fixes
The main issue with the tree layout is that the middle section of the tree is so lackluster, leaving us with an hourglass shape in terms of how we want to spend points. We end up spending 12-8-11 in each section respectively. Beyond that, I would only consider
Corazón vil errático
to be out of place, as it seems fairly weak for 2 points in the capstone section of the tree, and it might be better served in the center or top sections.
With some testing and logs on the Beta, Fury generation is currently slightly problematic, since the costs of our spenders were raised from 30 on live, to 35 for
Rajar alma
and 45 for
Bomba de espíritu
. This currently results in a fairly empty GCD rotation due to lack of Fury generation, which is only alleviated through taking
Hoja mácula
, another Fury generating option (
Llamas de furia
,
Furia perturbadora
, or
Ira tragada
), and
Sangre de llama volátil
from the spec tree. Of the three class options, the best choice depends on whether we have enemies that can be kicked or purged successfully or not, and when we don't, even
Llamas de furia
is fairly weak in ST, but decent in AoE. It is possible to play without
Hoja mácula
, but we end up with a fair number of empty GCDs which feels fairly awkward. I'd like to see our rotation be completely filled if taking
Hoja mácula
, with only a couple empty GCDs per minute if we choose to forgo it rather than the current situation where we have around 6-8 empty GCDs without, and 2-3 with. One way to accomplish this could be a minor cost reduction for our spenders. In addition, to make
Aura de dolor
more competitive, I think it should perhaps provide double Fury on crits, or have some other method of helping generate Fury, like
Sangre de llama volátil
does, while reverting
Sangre de llama volátil
to its previous function. This would balance it out as we wouldn't be taking Fury talents in both class and spec tree, and it creates a competitive choice node.
Hojas de Guerra carbonizadas
, while still being taken, is currently somewhat undertuned as well. If playing with
Bomba de espíritu
, it's about 3% leech, while without, it drops to 1-2%. A simple fix for this would be to make all of our magical damage abilities deal either Fire or Chaos damage, bringing it up much closer to 3-4% leech depending on the build played.
In the middle section, we have a number of dead talents that simply don't provide enough value, but with some tuning, they could be options. However, on the right-center subsection, I am of the opinion that those nodes should entirely be scrapped and replaced with something else.
Perdido en la oscuridad
can stay perhaps for PvP, but in PvE it's simply not an option. The choice node of
Sigilos concentrados
and
Sigilos precisos
is simply an abomination. While it is a decent choice for accessibility, both options remove player agency entirely, which is a net negative for play. If it exists for accessibility issues, I believe it would be better to enable @target casting of reticle-based ground-targeted abilities, similar to
the bug introduced in 9.2.5
that was quickly fixed. Then, both these talents would effectively just be macro options. That leaves control of how to use sigils in the hands of the player, while still allowing to path through. As a replacement,
Cadenas de ira
would be a good candidate, at 2.5/5 yards rather than 1/2, or perhaps make it a single point talent for 3-4 yards instead.
Out of the good nodes,
Armadura infernal
seems fairly weak for a 2 point node as well. For the investment, we receive 20% to armor and a small thorns effect only while
Aura de inmolación
is active. Vengeance Demon Hunters already have the lowest armor for all tank specs (bar Brewmasters, who have stagger), and a 20% increase to this armor value is only worth ~6-10% effective health, depending on active cooldowns. In addition, it's only up during
Aura de inmolación
, meaning it has somewhere between 40-80% uptime depending on haste and talents selected. This makes it worth somewhere between 2.4-8% effective health after taking uptime into account. For 2 points, that's barely on par with
Voluntad de los Illidari
, a talent we don't even take. While not directly comparable due to different paradigms, Warriors are already the highest armored tank, and they get
Placas reforzadas
, a single point node that increases armor by 20% permanently. The thorns effect also only applies to successful melee attacks, so it gets worse with higher avoidance from better gear.
Yet again, we run into the problem of our choice nodes not being real choices.
Primero de los Illidari
now reduces the cooldown of
Metamorfosis
by 1 minute and gives a bonus 10% Versatility while it is active, but that effectively raises its uptime from 8.33% to 12.5%. In comparison, if we look at 6 minute windows, it is effectively giving 30 extra seconds with 10% more Versatility. With no other supporting talents from our spec tree,
Demoníaco
is worth 48 seconds of uptime alone, when including the 2 second channel time which is counted as being in
Metamorfosis
. This can be increased up to 80 seconds if we get lucky with high rolling on
Favor de miradaoscura
. Not only does
Demoníaco
provide significantly more uptime, but it also has far more flexibility in usage, allowing us to weave regular casts with the procs. While the idea of a choice between more uptime or more power is good in theory, the amount of power gained with 10% Versatility is simply far too low to be competitive. Given the loss of flexibility,
Primero de los Illidari
would need to reduce the cooldown to 1 minute, while still providing a power boost, or we'd need to have a significant boost every 2 minutes to make it worthwhile.
Angustia en la derrota
was recently changed from 10% damage buff on adds to everyone, to a 20% personal damage buff after
Sigilo de desgracia
ends. Unfortunately, that makes it much less powerful as we already have rotational conflicts for setting up
Flaqueza
.
Down at the bottom, the choice nodes seem to be non-choices for Vengeance, though they may be useful for Havoc, so we can leave those as is. As stated before,
Corazón vil errático
feels out of place here, so I'd like to see something more added to make it more attractive, perhaps extra distance or another charge added.
Instintos desesperados
has the same problem as the choice node on the center-right portion of the tree. It removes player agency entirely from when we want to use our defensive cooldown. While this isn't an issue in casual content, as it will likely just proc on cooldown, it gets actively worse the more difficult the content. Even when comparing to similar abilities from other classes (
Veterano con cicatrices de batalla
for Warriors,
Instintos bien afinados
for Druids,
Rebotar
for Monks,
Voluntad de la necrópolis
for Death Knights), their passive defensives are on a separate (or no) cooldown from their actives. The 10% bonus reduction is attractive, but not at the cost of control. I'd like to see the ability on an entirely separate cooldown, perhaps with the potency/cooldown adjusted so that it isn't too powerful, which would make it worthy of a capstone talent. This would also create some much-needed tension in the bottom section of the tree, forcing us to choose among damage/utility/survivability.
Vengeance Demon Hunter Dragonflight Spec Tree
What's New?
Similar to the class tree, the specialization tree for Vengeance is comprised of a mix of current baseline abilities and talents, some borrowed power including Legendaries, Conduits, Covenant abilities, Artifact and Azerite traits, and some brand new interactions.
Current Baseline/Talents
Devastación vil
- Baseline spell
Marca ígnea
- Baseline spell, Rank 2 upgrade included
Púas deflectoras
- Baseline Rank 2 upgrade
Guja perfectamente equilibrada
- Baseline Rank 2 upgrade
Fractura
- Talent
Golpes meteóricos
- half of a current Talent
Festín de almas
- Talent
Llamas agonizantes
- Talent
Barrera de alma
- Talent
Extracción en masa
- Talent
Disfrutar del dolor
- Baseline Rank 3 upgrade
Atracador del Vacío
- Talent, slightly modified
Efecto colateral
- Talent
Bomba de espíritu
- Talent
Sigilo de cadenas
- Talent
Baluarte ruinoso
- Talent
Arder vivo
- Talent
Alimentar al demonio
- Talent
Carne quemada
- Talent
Último recurso
- Talent
Brand New
Flaqueza
- Previously part of
Bomba de espíritu
but now totally separate with new functionality
Represalias
- Inspired by a PvP talent
Filos dentados
but much weaker
Pinchos calcificados
Corte de furia
Cadenas de ira
Pinchos extendidos
Sangre ardiente
Sangre de llama volátil
- somewhat inspired by our current Tier 2p
Cuchilla enfocada
Vulnerabilidad
Machacaalmas
Envuelto en llamas
Borrowed Powers
Fuego rugidor
- Shadowlands Conduit
Fortificación de llama vil
- Legion/Shadowlands Legendary
Horno de almas
- Shadowlands Conduit
Angustia colectiva
- Shadowlands Legendary
Castigador
- Legion Artifact Trait
Favor de miradaoscura
- Shadowlands Legendary/Torghast Power
Perdición ígnea
- Legion Artifact Trait
Mercader de almas
- inspired by BfA Azerite Trait
Ciclo vinculante
- inspired by BfA Azerite Trait
Trinchador de almas
- Legion Artifact Trait
Decreto elisio
- Shadowlands Covenant Ability
(should be
Pasto de las llamas
) - Shadowlands Covenant Ability
First Impressions
Overall, my immediate reaction to the tree is that it is in a fairly good position, but could be improved. Similar to the class tree, I'd categorize it into three sections in two different ways. The top/center/bottom division requires us to spend specific amounts of points so that we can't build too heavily into the capstone section at the bottom. More generally, the left/middle/right sections of the tree seem to each have a general theme being explored. On the left, we have
Flaqueza
-focused talents. The middle is primarily focused on improvements to
Devastación vil
. The right side is mainly
Marca ígnea
. Finally, we have some unique talents that don't particularly belong anywhere being interspersed into all three parts of the tree.
Again, I've included an annotated visual tree below that may be useful for following along with my impressions.
Legend
Don't Pick Talent
Must Take Talent
General AoE
Generally Picked (Pathing)
Situational (High Risk of Death)
Survivability
DPS
Pure ST
Casual Content
I'll primarily be discussing the sections from a top to bottom perspective, as that is how we will be spending our points, but will also review the synergy for each thematic section as well as the unique talents.
Firstly, at the top, we must spend 8 points. These points are almost always going to be locked in with the current tree layout. We are forced to take the top 3 talents -
Devastación vil
,
Flaqueza
, and
Marca ígnea
, which makes sense, as they are the primary themes of each portion of the tree and critical to our spec working. There isn't much to say here, other than that
Flaqueza
seems to be the new focus for Vengeance. It used to be a 20-second long duration debuff that granted 10% leech and was applied by
Bomba de espíritu
, but now it's been reworked to apply from
Sigilo de llamas
, lasts only 5 seconds, and heals for 8%. It may seem somewhat undertuned at first glance, but it's just because there are many supporting talents below which greatly increase its power.
Following those 3 points, we have 3 talents which improve various baseline spells, 2 of which we always take.
Púas deflectoras
used to be a baseline Rank 2 upgrade, and while it is fine, I'd rather see this as part of the ability baseline, while giving us a talent that improves it instead.
Guja perfectamente equilibrada
is a rank 2 upgrade to
Lanzar guja
which is currently a button that is of lowest priority, which is unfortunate because we have to spend the point to access the good talents below it.
Golpes meteóricos
has some nice utility for extra mobility, but points are generally better spent elsewhere. There is a strange synergy with our class tree talent
Corazón vil errático
at the moment which reduces the cooldown by a significant amount, generating a fairly large amount of off-gcd threat.
For our last 3 points in this section, we'll generally be spending them on
Fractura
,
Fuego rugidor
.
Fractura
is generally considered one of Vengeance's signature abilities despite being a talent, with
Hender
being fairly reviled by most Vengeance players.
Pinchos calcificados
helps smooth out damage when
Púas de demonio
drops. I can even see some situations where we aren't taking much Physical damage, so we'd use
Púas de demonio
and cancel it preemptively for a bonus damage reduction. Unfortunately,
Fuego rugidor
is quite underpowered as the healing from
Devastación vil
is generally irrelevant, but we need it for pathing.
The remaining talents are bad enough that we would rarely ever consider taking them.
Corte de furia
improves the Fury generation of
Hender
, but as stated above, most players do not like the playstyle without
Fractura
. I could see it being fairly useful for a simple rotation for new players, as it would mainly require pressing
Hender
and
Rajar alma
.
Represalias
provides a very small damage increase and threat bonus, which in testing so far, seems rather underwhelming. Being locked behind
Golpes meteóricos
also means that we'd only build into it if forced. Meanwhile
Fortificación de llama vil
is yet another magic damage reduction which has low utility in most cases. Even in the cases where we would like extra magic damage reduction, it's unlikely that any other tank spec would be able to survive.
In the center section, we want to take
Horno de almas
as it improves our damage on both
Rajar alma
as well as
Bomba de espíritu
. Interestingly enough, due to the way
Bomba de espíritu
works with the souls being consumed before the damage is dealt, it will in fact proc on the
Bomba de espíritu
that absorbs a 10th soul.
Festín de almas
is an option for extra healing, but it is an AP% based heal and it refreshes rather than stacking or rolling like ignite, so with the way it's tuned, it won't ever be selected.
Pinchos extendidos
is quite a nice uptime buff to
Púas de demonio
, and similarly,
Llamas agonizantes
is quite attractive for both damage and Fury generation purposes.
Barrera de alma
and
Extracción en masa
in the choice node aren't generally worth the point due to bad interactions with Souls and low tuning.
Sangre ardiente
is very nice and will likely be taken for damage in many builds.
Atracador del Vacío
is the first of many talents that improves
Flaqueza
. It not only allows
Rajar alma
to apply the debuff, but also improves it so we take 4% reduced damage as well. A lovely talent and much improved from the current version on live.
Sangre de llama volátil
is a strong talent that will smooth out our Fury flow.
Efecto colateral
has a 60% chance per enemy damaged to generate a Soul on the cast of
Aura de inmolación
, up to a cap of 5 Souls.
Baluarte ruinoso
has the same weaknesses as
Fuego rugidor
, but in this case, it doesn't even have forced pathing so we will try to avoid it. Sadly,
Disfrutar del dolor
, previously a rank 3 upgrade to
Marca ígnea
is again locked behind bad pathing while not being strong enough for us to want to go that way.
Bomba de espíritu
has always been a popular talent since its introduction in Legion's patch 7.1.5, but has either overshadowed
Rajar alma
rotationally, or been eliminated due to anti-synergies. Currently on the Beta, it's barely performing equally in AoE below 5 targets and a significant loss in ST due to a later talent, which is an odd decision, as it is effectively spending a talent point for no gain outside of large target count pulls. This could be a tuning issue, or perhaps a candidate for a rework. In most cases I'd still probably take it simply because it's a cheaper way to path down into the strong talents in the capstone section below as well as being effectively required beyond 5 targets.
Castigador
was a great Artifact trait that helped smooth out our damage taken, and now it's back, albeit in a weaker form.
Favor de miradaoscura
is our currently most used Legendary, and the new form reduces the randomness somewhat by guaranteeing at least a partial refund. It will be a required talent for AoE/Mythic+, but isn't all that great in ST.
Perdición ígnea
is another powerful Artifact trait that was brought down in power from its previous form, but allows for some interactive and fun gameplay around burst windows every minute.
Sigilo de cadenas
, while popular for mob control, is unfortunately locked out of the way behind a weak talent and it's likely we will almost never consider picking it up - a sad fate for such a useful tool. Behind it is
Cadenas de ira
, a nice utility talent, but for only a 2 yard radius and is again locked behind low value talents.
Finally, in the capstone section, we have
Cuchilla enfocada
, which significantly increases the damage dealt by
Rajar alma
on Single Target, fixing one of our core weaknesses from Shadowlands.
Mercader de almas
is a bit of a trap, as it performs extremely well currently on the Beta, but we are also taking very little damage. It gets worse as content gets harder and we spend less time at max health.
Angustia colectiva
is quite a nice damage boost, and it synergizes with our class talent
Hojas de Guerra carbonizadas
as well as our other sources of leech to provide a decent amount of healing.
Arder vivo
continues to be lackluster as it already was this expansion, due to the slow spread and target limit.
Ciclo vinculante
is a minor dps and utility increase, but will likely only be taken in specific situations for maximizing damage. The 100ms ICD means that it can only proc once per cast, rather than per target as some people may misinterpret the tooltip.
Vulnerabilidad
is another talent in the
Flaqueza
family, making us deal increased damage to all debuffed targets. It's quite strong as is, and definitely worth the points.
Alimentar al demonio
grants us increased
Púas de demonio
uptime through cooldown reduction and can finally be taken without losing
Fractura
, making it much more attractive than it is now.
Carne quemada
is a nice extension to
Marca ígnea
, but again is on the weaker right side of the tree, so we won't be going for it.
On the absolute final row, we've got
Machacaalmas
, which is fantastic. It allows us to stack
Flaqueza
multiple times, making all other talents that affect it also stack. In addition to that, it allows both
Rajar alma
and
Bomba de espíritu
(despite not being in the tooltip) to apply a second stack onto your primary target, making our ST damage and survivability even better! I could not have dreamed of a better talent, so this was a real surprise. Next, we've got
Trinchador de almas
, a throwback to our Legion Artifact, for even more ST burst damage.
Último recurso
still exists, but now that it's not the only somewhat useful talent on a bad row and it's actually quite weak in comparison to most other cheat deaths, it's a rather hard sell. Surprisingly, we may not even take it outside of a few edge cases. Sadly, the
which seems to be intended to be
Pasto de las llamas
in game, will never be taken as it still has the same issue as it does in Shadowlands - no control over the proc, as well as a new issue in that our
Lanzar guja
is even weaker.
Decreto elisio
is still good, though not nearly as strong as it currently is, but as tuned, it's the second strongest option after
Machacaalmas
. Lastly, there's
Envuelto en llamas
, which simply provides one extra charge. While having a charge rather than a cooldown does mean that there is slightly more flexibility in the usage of
Marca ígnea
and allows for some delay in usage, it's simply not strong enough for a capstone at the moment, meaning we'll never take it.
Overall, all three sections are somewhat fairly laid out from top to bottom, but there is a power imbalance from left to right. While our point distribution is good, there are some pathing issues in general. In addition, the left side
Flaqueza
is overwhelmingly dominant, with the middle being fairly mediocre, but just slightly better than the right side, which is woefully undertuned at the moment. This leads us into primarily ignoring the right side entirely in most builds.
Potential Builds
Here are a few potential builds at the moment with a quick breakdown of why specific talents were selected.
We pick up full defensive talents here, with as much mobility as possible. If there are adds that can be controlled, we can swap a few points over into
Angustia en la derrota
.
This gives us absolute maximum ST damage, with a huge burst window every minute from
Perdición ígnea
, but we lose out on some AoE and survivability.
This gives us a decent mix of survivability, AoE damage, and ST damage for Mythic+. In extremely high keys, we may swap over to slightly more defensive talents.
Issues and Potential Fixes
My main gripe with the current spec tree layout is the lack of power on the right side. Prior to this update, I'd suggested putting the
Aura de inmolación
-related talents onto the right, while moving the Sigil-related talents to the middle, which would allow for better access and flow throughout the tree. Instead, they've been concentrated in the opposite sections, making it hard to take anything in the top and center right sections.
I'd like to reiterate that I believe
Púas deflectoras
should be made baseline, with something like
Púas defensivas
replacing it instead. The change in talent position in the recent build which forced pathing through
Guja perfectamente equilibrada
is unfortunate, as it has effectively obsoleted
Represalias
, which was previously never taken. Neither talent is good, but
Represalias
could potentially be improved. Right now, it's simply a thorns effect which only procs on successful melee attacks against us, same as
Armadura infernal
. A minor change to allow it to proc off any melee even if avoided would go a long way in making it more palatable.
Fuego rugidor
(required for some pathing) and
Baluarte ruinoso
(completely avoided) share the same problem - they both improve the weakest aspect of
Devastación vil
, a heal that's effectively irrelevant. Similarly,
Festín de almas
is a heal that doesn't stack, but refreshes and is of low value as well.
Pinchos extendidos
is a bit weak for 2 points, especially when comparing to active mitigation from other tank specs. It has great synergy for increasing uptime with
Alimentar al demonio
, but spending 4 points to improve one of the weakest AM spells in the game feels bad. Even with all the talents spent on
Púas de demonio
, it continues to be one of the least powerful survivability options.
Barrera de alma
is unfortunate because it disappears effectively instantly after being cast, making it not worth the Souls absorbed. A nice buff could be to revert it to the Legion version, which had a minimum absorb so that it lasted the full 12 seconds with new Souls adding to it consistently.
Extracción en masa
would be more interesting if it didn't immediately absorb the Souls, and could have a reduced cooldown or deal more damage. Both are currently quite unattractive, but could be swapped with
Fortificación de llama vil
to make them better candidates, as they'd have more general and interesting use cases.
While
Sangre de llama volátil
is currently in a good place, it was changed from granting a Soul on crit to a random amount of Fury. This helps make our Fury flow smoother, but in return we've lost one fairly strong source of Souls for both healing and damage. As mentioned in the class tree issues above, I'd like to see this change reverted, while putting the crit Fury bonus into
Aura de dolor
instead, giving us a choice of a smaller passive amount of Fury, or more Fury at the cost of extra globals spent.
Sigilo de cadenas
and
Disfrutar del dolor
being swapped would make them much more interesting, as it groups the Sigil talents together, while keeping the shielding theme grouped up top as well.
Mercader de almas
is in a strange spot, as it is strong in easy content, and gets worse in harder content. A simple way to balance it out would be to make it more similar to the Azerite trait it came from, which was a flat absorb for every Soul consumed, or perhaps make it shield for a % of all actual healing done by the Souls, rather than overheal.
Now that
Rajar alma
is hard capped at 5 targets, a change I heavily disagree with,
Bomba de espíritu
has a separate niche. The hard cap feels quite bad and I don't like this way of forcing a talent to have a niche. I'd prefer to see something like this done instead:
Revert the target cap on
Rajar alma
.
Make
Bomba de espíritu
a passive upgrade to
Rajar alma
during
Metamorfosis
, but rework it so that it works similar to
Almas emergentes
, so it does baseline Physical damage and additionally, bonus Fire damage in an AoE per Soul consumed while increasing Soul consumption up to 5 instead of 2.
Replace the
Bomba de espíritu
talent with a talent that makes all Physical portions of
Rajar alma
deal Fire damage instead.
Convert that talent into a choice node, with the above and another new spell like Spirit Spear, which would be a ST finisher type spell that consumes up to 5 Souls to do heavy Fire damage to a single enemy, giving a choice between more AoE and more ST focus.
Additionally, despite the change to auto-consume Souls being reduced from 6 yards to 4 yards, it's not quite enough for a
Bomba de espíritu
-based build. Any time we are up against a wall or some sort of stationary hole-in-the-ground boss, the Souls are forced to spawn near us, and even the slightest movement will auto-consume them. If we want to maintain the class fantasy of having Souls nearby, please give us a toggle that lets us not accidentally consume them by walking too close, or make that default while giving us a button to absorb all souls similar to
Expulsar daño
.
Very minor concern with
Angustia colectiva
is that it currently doesn't scale with haste(number of ticks) or crit(as it is guaranteed), while the base
Devastación vil
does, making it relatively weaker as we go longer into the expansion.
On the bottom right section, the
Marca ígnea
talents are kneecapped by the target limit and slow spreading of
Arder vivo
, making them fairly lackluster. I think it'd be far more interesting if
Arder vivo
spread to all enemies damaged by
Sigilo de llamas
or had some other, quicker spread mechanic to make it more appealing and competitive with
Flaqueza
-based builds. In particular,
Envuelto en llamas
just feels too niche and not powerful enough to be a capstone, so perhaps something similar to our current Legendary power
Alma ígnea
(but working off any Soul consumption) would be in order here.
Pasto de las llamas
currently doesn't seem to have a use-case either, as it is outshone by
Decreto elisio
in all content due to lack of control and requiring us to use a global on
Lanzar guja
to kill it.
There is also a tuning imbalance between talents such as
Trinchador de almas
(as much as I like it), and
Decreto elisio
. While not shown in the tooltip, there is a 50% penalty on the offhand strike (n.b. this also applies to
Fractura
) which is the second AP value listed. This means that it does 150%+75% initial fire hit damage, each of which can individually crit, and then the 97.65% AP DoT afterwards, for a total of 322.65% AP. In
Fractura
's case, it does 40%+40% AP damage as Physical. While
Trinchador de almas
is Fire damage, so it can benefit from interacting with
Perdición ígnea
, it deals less damage than a single cast of
Decreto elisio
on ST which deals 350% AP Arcane damage, while not having the advantage of multi-target scaling. In addition, there is more consideration required for optimizing
Trinchador de almas
whereas
Decreto elisio
generally has less setup required. I believe that an easier to play talent should be slightly less powerful than one which has more restrictions, so it would be nice to see a small buff to
Trinchador de almas
or nerf to
Decreto elisio
.
Finally,
Último recurso
has lost much of its luster; as a cheat death, it's not particularly strong compared to others, and now that it's not a forced choice in a row of bad options, it's been reduced to a very small niche, which isn't great for a capstone. Much of this is due to the loss in power of
Metamorfosis
as a cooldown during the transition from Legion to BfA. In Legion,
Metamorfosis
was quite powerful, as we had flat % reduction, and gaining armor on top of that was quite strong. However, with the conversion of
Púas de demonio
to flat armor, and
Metamorfosis
not applying to any temporary armor gains, it's no longer a strong survivability option. In Shadowlands, it's currently possible to proc
Último recurso
and die while having
Metamorfosis
already up, and the long 8 minute cooldown makes it even worse. A reduction in cooldown, or a change to
Metamorfosis
(perhaps giving it a flat damage reduction instead of armor, or increased healing in addition) would make it a much more attractive option.
Mastery Soft Rework
On the latest version, our mastery has been soft reworked into granting half the armor bonus at all times, and the other half during
Púas de demonio
. In addition, a bug was noticed and fixed in that our Mastery was only at a 2.5 multiplier per Mastery point rather than 3 as the tooltip stated. These are both buffs, increasing the relative value of Mastery compared to other stats. However, at this time, it's not nearly enough to make Mastery a valued stat. It simply makes it so that we don't immediately want to discard an item that has Mastery on it. Prior to these changes, Mastery was effectively worth ~25% of the value of any other stat, and these changes bring it up to an estimated ~50-60%. In addition, the Mastery armor is not multiplied by any other modifiers, so it loses even more relative power during
Metamorfosis
. The changes I suggested above would help, but would only be a step towards making Mastery valuable.
Final Thoughts
All in all, I think the Vengeance tree is looking good, with most of my concerns being quite minor. If it launched as is, I wouldn't hate it. However, I do think much could be improved even in small ways. If your preference is to use a single cookie-cutter build for most content, I think you'll enjoy this iteration of the tree, but I would prefer to have more variety and be able to tailor builds for specific situations.
Interested in playing Vengeance Demon Hunter now? Check our out live guide for this spec!
Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide
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